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Steve Kayser interviews Robert McKee, legendary guru of Hollywood storytelling and the best-selling author of "STORY."
Competitive Advantage in the Complex Sale.
Everyone wants it. Challengers need it.
Losers whine about it.
Winners have it.
How do you get it? And ...
What’s love got to do with it?
Read on my friends …
What follows is an innovative approach to the Complex Sale following the Shoot the Donkey format and incorporating the key Shoot the Donkey principle of:
"Taking decisive action to remove all obstacles to success."
Robert McKee, the best-selling author of "STORY" and legendary guru of Hollywood storytelling, is going to concisely explain in an earthy, easy-to-understand interview, how Story principles can be used to help you stun, dazzle and communicate effectively in the Complex-Sale process.
What does he know about Story?
His students have garnered:
19 Academy Awards
Then, I’m going to tell you what love’s got to do with it.
But first … what is a Complex Sale?
The Complex Sale typically refers to a high-value purchase of products or services, $150,000 in value and up. It typically involves a Buyer's Committee, consisting of anywhere from three to 12 people … or more. To be successful, you must be able to persuasively communicate to multiple decision-makers, multiple departments, and multiple organizations.
Even if your product or service is the best - features, functions, service, cost, value, etc. - if it’s not effectively communicated to the multiple and disparate personalities on the buying committee …
Even if you’re good, if your message doesn’t resonate, touch, move, or persuade your audience to act, it’s just a waste of your time and your money. So what decisive action can you take to remove those obstacles to your success to close the Complex Sale?
Make me laugh. Make me cry. Make me move.
Steve, you moron. That’s simplistic. Everyone knows that. The question is how?
Story. Tell a story.
Throw your 58-slide, PowerPoint presentations and reverse-flash, creative swipe/swish, corporate-acronym Bin Laden gobbledygook out the fourth-story window.
Kiss corporate–acronym, Bin Laden gobbledygook PowerPoints goodbye.
A presentation without PowerPoint slides?
Remember … I said tell a good story. Tell it well. I’m not talking about disingenuous, contextually sophisticated, unprincipled corporate gobbledygook. (Say that fast three times.)
Boring. Boring. Boring.
Whatever you’re doing now with your PowerPoints … it’s not communicating, inspiring, or motivating - it’s not even remotely interesting.
Oh … wait a minute. You’re different. Right? You’re good? You da man? You’re the Steven Spielberg of the complex-sale presentation?
Dare you take the PowerPoint proof-of-pudding test?
The next sales presentation you give or attend, take note of what occurs after PowerPoint slide number five is swipe/swished onto the screen. Unless you really are da man, the Steven Spielberg of the complex-sale presentation, 90 percent of the people in attendance will fall into one of the following descriptive categories:
1. The Mighty E-mail Master Multi-tasker (MEMM)
The MEMM reads their e-mail on desktops, laptops, PDAs, or wireless (or all three at the same time) during your presentation. Looks up occasionally, feigns interest, may smile on the rare occasion and spew a few meaningless corporate acronyms to let you know he’s in the room, then … puts his head down, empties all e-mail folders - including sent, draft, and trash - and proceeds to the nearest online sports or horoscope web page.
*A special note on the MEMM. Tends to be the most vociferous critic of the presentation after you leave. Can clearly and concisely detail the flaws in any presentation to which they don’t pay attention.
2. The Diligent Dutiful Drone (DDD)
The DDD stares, smiles, nods, drinks, and laughs on rare occasions (keep your distance … could be flatulence) and most closely resembles a display-case manikin. What’s nice about the DDD is:
a.) They smile and make you feel a little better about yourself, and
b.) They have ZERO influence.
They don’t want to be there.
• You’re boring.
• You’re lying.
• They know it.
But, they’re masters of the art of being actively employed while daydreaming.
3. The Game Player (GP)
A real classic. I like him. Type “A” introverted extrovert. Flips open the laptop, occasionally tries to hide online game-playing activities but goes to no great effort. Looks up every five to seven minutes and convincingly nods understanding of complex technology, processes and people issues. Has canned industry-analyst quotes or research that is prattled off machine-gun style in the blink of a PowerPoint swish. The GP can typically play between three to five online games at one time, within communities ranging from 2,000 to 4,000 users; answer all attacks; defend and super-power-pack energizing, life-protecting, virtual-shield questions via Instant Messenger (IM) in less than one second. Very efficient.
4. The D*mn Data Destroyer (3-D)
The 3-D may smile occasionally and has insidiously iridescent eyes and a serial-killer smile that yells, “What lie are you telling?” The 3-D exuberantly researches each fact you use in your presentation and typically has between 800 to 1,000 search engines at his disposal intelligently configured to automate the process of destroying your credibility. He success rate is over 90 percent. Keys to look for: Sometime after PowerPoint slide #10 of your presentation, if he has failed to find a factual misstatement, his eyes turn a glowing red and some spittle or drool visibly emanate. Steer clear … 3-D is extremely dangerous.
5. The “ME-ME,” or the “I’m Much Too Important to Be Here”
The most irritating of the complex-sales presentation attendees, ME-ME answers all e-mails, never looks up, never pays attention, and takes all cell-phone calls while in the meeting. The only courtesy extended to you is turning around backwards to bend over while talking to the auto repair shop on the cell phone. Sometimes ME-ME even stoops to feigning a cell-phone call by testing the ringer … “Sorry, I have to take this very important, business-critical call.”
WARNING! ME-ME is just as dangerous as 3-D. To be able to pull off this offensively rude behavior, ME-ME actually has some power and/or authority. Me-Me is predisposed to not liking your presentation most probably because it wasn’t a ME-ME idea.
Therefore it stinks.
And so do you.
You recognized the categories didn’t you?
You know it. Admit it.
Each of these people categories and activities is an obstacle to your success. Let’s try an innovative approach (unless you’re a Me-Me) to move people out of categories 1-5 into, as Jim Carey in the movie “MASK” puts it, a "They love me! "They really Love me!" category.
Enter Robert McKee:
“Universally Acclaimed” – The New York Times
“Near Legendary” – The Washington Post
Robert McKee is the most widely known and respected screenwriting lecturer in the world today.
His former students' accomplishments are unparalleled. Some recent, notable, former students to win or be nominated for Oscars include: Akiva Goldsman (Winner - Best Writing: Adapted Screenplay) for his screenplay "A Beautiful Mind," Peter Jackson (writer/director of "Lord of the Rings I and II," Nominated - Best Picture), and many others.
Stories written, directed, or produced by students of Robert McKee include:
“Air Force One,” “Cheers,” “Shrek,” “The Color Purple,” “Crimson Tide,” “The Deer Hunter,” “The Elephant Man,” “ER,” “Forrest Gump” (my all-time favorite – an idiot triumphs!), “Gandhi,” “M*A*S*H,” “On Golden Pond,” “Saving Private Ryan,” “Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves,” “Sleepless in Seattle,” “The X-Files,” “A Time to Kill,” “Toy Story I and II,” and more.
Quincy Jones, Kirk Douglas, Dominick Dunne, and William Goldman write glowing testimonials not only to the book, STORY, but the man as well.
Robert McKee Knows Story.
McKee was also recently portrayed by Emmy Award-winning actor Brian Cox in Columbia Pictures' four-time Oscar-nominated, "Adaptation." The film follows the life of screenwriter Charlie Kaufman (played by Oscar-winning actor Nicolas Cage) who is trying to adapt the novel The Orchid Thief into a screenplay. Under a deadline from the film company to hand in his script, Cage turns to Robert McKee and the Story Seminar for inspiration to complete his screenplay. The film also stars Oscar-winning actress Meryl Streep and Chris Cooper, who won an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor for "Adaptation."
Charlie Kaufman (Nicolas Cage) seeks advice from Robert McKee (Brian Cox)
Steve (S): Thanks for taking the time to be with us today.
Robert (R): Sure.
S: How can the principles of Story work in the Complex-Sales presentation? How can it be used to resonate and touch disparate groups with different agendas, goals, and prejudices, while at the same time, connecting the intellect - making good economic business sense?
R: First, why is it so complex?
S: Good question … the complexity of the products and services, and the buying committees have forced salespeople to communicate with a lot of different types and groups of people - users, business types, programmers, etc. To accomplish this, it usually turns into a 58-slide PowerPoint presentation laden with meaningless corporate acronyms to address every aspect of the individual’s wants/needs on the buyer’s committee … too much info.
And, the fact of the matter is, there are a lot of products and services that can solve their problems. There’s really not a lot of difference. The key should be the sales presentation ... effectively communicating simply the economic business value and connecting on an emotional level with the people.
R: You know, I’ve been in situations where writers are pitching their stories, right? They’re trying to sell their screenplay. Most executives are so busy that they would rather have the writer come in and pitch the story in 10 minutes before they decide whether they want to spend two or three hours reading it. So the pitch has to go well. I’ve seen writers come in and they’re charming, they’re funny, they do this brilliant song and dance about their story that they have obviously rehearsed and polished and then tell their story virtually tap dancing on your desk. And I have also had writers come in that were not very good. Not good! They were scared to death. They were very shy. They weren’t comfortable around people. They couch and choke their story out and … you know it’s brilliant.
S: But, how, or why, do you know the story is brilliant?
R: Because you listen to the story and no matter how badly the guy performs it, you go “that’s a great story.” You’re fascinated by the sudden story surprises and revelations – although the delivery may not be there.
S: What about the charming funny guy?
R: Mr. Charm? You listen to his story and you know he’d better be charming because his story is a piece of crap if you actually listen to what’s being said. In the great play and the film Death of a Salesman, Willy Loman talked about always having a shine on your shoes and a smile on you face … but he’s a terrible salesman and his family is starving.
If you’re out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor.
- Albert Einstein
R: But I do know, presuming that the people you’re trying to persuade are intelligent and are actually listening and not being influenced by the charm of the speaker, that there’s a powerful, compelling way to present effectively. Story.
S: Story? Can you explain what you mean when you say that? How would you incorporate Story principles into the Complex-Sales presentation?
R: There are two choices or methods of presentation. Rhetoric or Story. It’s all about persuasion, right? You’re trying to persuade someone to buy something. Or in the Complex-Sales setting, you’re trying to persuade a number of people at various levels involved in hierarchy of some organization. Rhetoric is the PowerPoint method where you present evidence in a certain order ... or what is known as an inductive argument, right?
S: The difference?
R: Rhetoric is statistics, facts, quotes from authorities, etc. Rhetoric recites this point, this fact, this industry-analyst quote, and then another point, ad infinitum, so therefore, mine is the best, the greatest, the one, the only, product and service that can do what you need.
S: Yes … so what’s wrong with that?
R: They know you’re lying! You lie in a rhetorical PowerPoint presentation by presenting the information in the most favorable light possible. The buyer knows you’re lying, because the buyer is a businessperson who knows that nothing is that rosy. You quote your industry analysts – they’ll refute your industry analysts with theirs.
I didn’t fib! I made a fable, like Aesop and those other guys.
- Dennis the Menace
R: Why expose your weaknesses? Why not conceal it? Because if you only give the positive side, they instinctively know you’re lying. Because why? Again, nothing is that good. The deep difference between presenting something rhetorically and creating it in a story ... is that in a story, it is a dynamic of positive and negative charges.
R: You start up a business and immediately you’ve got problems. You overcome those problems and take a step forward but new problems arise. You find ingenious ways to solve those problems only to discover that you have a competitor who’s got another product that does it better. You improve your product to be better than your competitor. It goes on. So when you tell a story, you can’t just hit positive, positive, positive.
In Story, you cannot hide the negative. In fact, it’s overcoming the negative that makes you powerful. It makes the positive even more positive in the eyes of the person whose hearing the story. Therefore, when you tell a story, admit problems and then dramatize the solution of those problems. Then cause new problems to arise. Dramatize the solution of those problems until you finally get to that positive climax. Because you’re admitting your negatives in front of them, it takes a lot of guts.
Admit the negative. Overcome. Give yourself the power.
R: They sit there saying:
“That’s right. That’s true. That’s what it’s like to be in a business environment. It’s not all positive. But this person is showing me how his product or his service will overcome those problems and how I will benefit.”
As a result, they feel that they’re being told the truth.
S: But couldn’t you be lying anyway?
R: Yes, you can lie in a story just as well. But when you tell stories, if you lie, the lies become evident quickly because of the interweaving of story and fact. When you tell it in PowerPoint, they know you’re lying. They just don’t know where. There’s a more important lesson here. You realize, well, that’s a lie! That’s crap. I wouldn’t buy that.
The truth is rarely pure, and never simple.
- Oscar Wilde
R: Preparing to tell your business case in a story forces you to confront the lie and search for the truth. You will catch yourself as you prepare for the presentation sloughing over certain problematic things. If you’ve really got guts, you won’t slough over them. You will admit them.
R: Because then you will show how even these very difficult problems are overcome. When you tell your story honestly and you don’t hide the negative, you tell it well. People sit there with their mouths open going, “my God, what guts.” Put them in the position to see how the negative is overcome. You’ll gain their trust. And, you will have also impressed the heck out of them because you’re an honest human being who knows the reality. A person who deals in reality, but has honestly dramatized the way in which these problems, that we all, as business people, know exist.
Impress them with your honesty. Expose the negatives. Gain their trust.
S: In STORY, you say Paddy Chayefsky told you once that when he’d discovered his story’s meaning he’d scratch it out on a scrap of paper and tape it to his typewriter so that nothing going through his typewriter would in one way or another express his central theme. A clear statement of Value and Cause. That seems like a logical first step in any story.
Discover your story’s meaning.
Make it your clear statement of Value and Cause
R: Yes. From there you’d take that same rhetorical presentation and dramatize it. Within the story there is rhetoric, there is information. The actual facts get woven into the story. Weave the information dramatically within a story. Leave them hanging. If you tell them a story that’s predictable, they’ll get ahead of you and lose interest. Tell a story that pits expectations vs. realities, and the struggles to overcome them. I believe great salesmen are by instinct, storytellers.
Pit expectations vs. realities.
Tell the struggle to overcome.
Leave them hanging.
S: And the foundation of a good storytelling Complex-Sales presentation is?
R: Research. The key to winning the war is research, taking time and effort to acquire knowledge. Understanding their problems …
S: Is that what you mean when you describe it as “storytelling from the inside out?”
R: Yes. You want them empathizing, you want them saying, “my God he’s telling my story. That’s me.” It’s got to be very personal for them.
S: Could you talk a little about “The Principle of Creative Limitation?”
R: It’s exactly the subject we’re talking about. The PowerPoint presentation is easy, that’s why people do it. Creative limitation means instead of doing something the easy way, you do it the hard way. You take a method that is much more difficult to accomplish. As a result in your struggle as a salesman to accomplish the presentation in the form of a story, you are forcing yourself to be creative. The more difficult you make it for yourself, the more brilliant the solutions you will have to come up with or you fail. And when you come up with brilliant creative solutions to the presentation, the results for the people, for the audience, are stunning.
Force yourself to be creative. It will stun your audience.
R: The principle of creative limitation forces you to do it the hard way. Story is more difficult than PowerPoint there is no question. You have to have a real talent for this and you have to do it really well or you will look like a fool. That is why people avoid it, because they don’t have the talent, they don’t do the research. They really don’t have the knowledge, they don’t know how to present it in a living way it’s difficult.
Why is whistling not a Beethoven symphony? Because whistling is easy. A Beethoven symphony is hard. But when you take on the challenge of writing a symphony, the creative solutions are amazing, overwhelming. Whistling is something you can do on the street. The more difficult the technique, the more brilliant the solution. Another analogy ... golf is more difficult than ping-pong. It’s not that ping-pong isn’t good, it’s a lot of fun and at the highest levels, it’s wonderful. But ping-pongers are not Tiger Woods, why? Because the golf swing is infinitely more difficult than hitting a ping-pong ball. Touch football is not tackle.
When you make things easy, the results are boring. When you make things difficult the creative solutions, the concentration, the practice, and the work that has to go into it, forces you to be creative. The results are all the more stunning. PowerPoints, of course, are the natural choice because people do not want to work and they don’t want to fail. And so they take what is easy and they think it will be successful. And then, they don’t get the sales.
Are you a whistler or a Beethoven?
R: And so, when they fail, they blame the product, they blame the buyer for whatever reasons they rationalize they’re crazy.
S: In your book, you talk about the “GAP” … what is it, and could this be an effective tool in a Complex-Sales presentation?
R: The world does not react the way you thought it would react. The GAP is between expectation and reality. What do you do? You’ve got to gather yourself and find another solution. When the gap opens up in life, it’s because the negative side of life that you could not anticipate suddenly erupted in the face of your action. Every day you walk into an office expecting cooperation and then one day you get antagonism. The deep difference between Story and PowerPoint is that Story admits to the negative. Admits to the fact that life does not react the way you expect and that is a fundamental difference. The gap is the essence of overcoming the chasm between expectations and reality. PowerPoints pretend that gaps don’t exist. PowerPoints pretend that the world will react exactly the way you predict.
But what guides you, of course, is that you’re ultimately trying to leave with the buyer one, clear, simple idea you want them to all understand. Not just understand intellectually, but also understand emotionally by the time you’re done.
A good story connects one simple idea - intellectually and emotionally.
S: Okay, close to wrapping it up here. In your book, you said from the ’20s to the ’50s storytelling was common knowledge. Now it’s a lost art. Is Story really a lost art or is it just not being taught anymore?
R: We went through a terrible cycle of very, very bad education of the writer. Education of the writer/storyteller was turned inside out from the ’60s on, but now finally, the light is dawning on people and they see that there’s a difference. The fundamental difference is between criticism and creativity. What’s been taught to writers for the last 40 years was not creativity but criticism. The methods of speech and literature and writing at universities may have been extremely valuable to people who want to be critics, but useless to the writer/storyteller, and in fact, detrimental to the writer.
S: Thank you for your time Robert.
END OF INTERVIEW
Now Steve, you ask, what’s love got to do with it? The Complex Sale?
If you ever talk to Robert McKee, you’ll know.
If you ever read STORY, you’ll know.
But if you don’t get the chance to do either … it’s most perfectly described in his book this way (used by permission):
It’s All About Love
The love of story – The fascination with sudden surprises and revelations that bring sea changes in life.
The love of truth – The belief that lies cripple, that every truth in life must be questioned.
The love of humanity – A willingness to empathize with suffering souls, to crawl inside their skins and see the world through their eyes.
The love of humor – A joy in the saving grace that restores the balance of life.
The love of language – The delight in sound and sense, syntax, and semantics.
The love of duality – A feel for life’s hidden contradictions, a healthy suspicion that things are not what they seem.
The love of perfection – The passion to write and rewrite in search of the perfect moment.
The love of uniqueness – The thrill of audacity and a stone-faced calm when it is met by ridicule.
The love of beauty – An innate sense that treasures good, hates bad, and knows the difference.
OOPS – wait a minute. I have to vent a little. When writing this interview, some publication I never heard of (The New Yorker) published an in-depth interview with Robert McKee (click here to read) as well.
I don’t mind a little competition. Especially from a magazine I’ve never heard of. And, no I’m not jealous. Nope. Not one scintilla of jealousy under this kilt.
I am sure the grapes are sour.
- Aesop, “The Fox and the Grapes”
Well, maybe a little jealous.
Okay … maybe it’s a well-done piece. Professional. Concise. In-depth. I guess a little prestigious if you’re in New York, L.A., or Chicago … but here in the heartland of America?
No … don’t think so. I mean the interviewer didn’t even put his picture on the article. What kind of journalism is that?
Hey New Yorker! Prove you’re not just another pretty face …
About Robert McKee:
For over 20 years, Robert McKee's Story Seminar has been the world's ultimate writing class for over 40,000 screenwriters, filmmakers, TV writers, novelists, industry executives, actors, producers, directors, and playwrights.
McKee graduates have earned:
19 Academy Awards
And have written such recent blockbusters as:
A Beautiful Mind
The Two Towers